The 75-25 rewards simulation and POB tax discussions.

in LeoFinance2 months ago

Good evening to everyone , a couple of days ago I had promised that I will post about this .

Due to the confusion of actual reward split and the taxes of POB I have to delay it .

Now since that is cleared out , I decided to gather the data again and run the simulation .

What does it mean ?

It means that I have gathered the data from the beginning for POB and I have converted the actual rewards to 75% 25% .

Let us go through the data and then we shall discuss what it means -

1. Rewards daily -

Daily_actual_simulation.gif

Here -

Blue line = Author reward
Red = Curation
Sky blue = token benefactor ( which means tax goes here )
Yellow = Comment benefactor ( which means you have set someone else as beneficiary )

Well the first graph ( above ) is actual rewards and below is the simulated .

  1. If you see now , the actual rewards and the curation rewards are sticking to each other meaning that both are almost equal ( not equal , they can't be because of the taxes but almost equal )
  2. But in simulated ( 75% author and 25% curation ) , there is a huge gap in between author rewards and curation rewards on a daily basis .

This shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone since this is the expected pattern .

2. Average rewards of Author and curation

For simplicity purpose , I have remove the token benefactor and comment benefactor rewards .

Now if we take a look at Average author rewards and curation rewards -

Daily_actual_simulation_average.gif

If you observe this , you can tell that

  1. In the initial days when POB was launched both average author rewards and curation rewards was high ( as expected ) but then average author rewards have been consistent ( around 3-4 POB per post and comment ) but average curation reward is around 0.3-0.4 .

  2. The simulated version tells that author rewards ( average ) increase ( obviously ) and the curation is almost negligible .

What insight does this provide us ? This tells us that there are numerous users who are earning way too less curation rewards right now ( since the average is too low compared to author rewards ) and that would reduce further if 75-25 is implemented .

3. How would the richlist appear ?

Well considering only author and curation rewards ( this excludes buying and selling too )

The richlist would appear like this -

richlist.gif

4. The total reward distribution would seem like this -

Total_rewards.gif


Why you shouldn't consider these data too seriously ?

Because this is not the most accurate representation of 75/25 . It takes more than a simple script to simulate everything , all I can do is the conversion from 50/50 to 75/25 but

  1. I can't change the actual vote value because of the less curation reward which result in further decrease in curation rewards .
  2. I can't change the buying and selling of POB tokens here . There are many users who bought POB and earned curation rewards , now if 75/25 pattern was there they wouldn't have bought POB at all most probably ?
  3. If there was no buying of POB ( because of less curation rewards ) then ofcourse the price of POB would have been less and inturn the activity would have been less and inturn the average author rewards would have been more .

So all these things can just be imagined but can't be simulated using a simple script .

Oh well I can't even write a script which can take the 2nd point into factor , how can I determine if people would have bought POB or not if it was 75/25 ?

So don't take this too seriously , this is just for fun that's all .

What do I favour ? 50/50 or 75/25 ?

I actually support 50/50 because it takes a lot of time to accumulate the tokens which isn't easy at all .

We either have to invest time or invest money to gain sufficient tokens to earn good amount of curation rewards so I actually support 50/50 .

45/5/50

But actually right now we are 45/5/50 on POB . That means of the overall rewards a post gets , 45% goes to author , 5% goes to null , 50% goes to curators .

Couple of days ago I posted about it , you can check it out here. It can be also put as -

10% tax is removed from the total rewards and then out of that 47.36% goes to author and 52.64% goes to curator .

Both are same - both calculations provides the same answer so right now if we leave tax out - we are left with 45/50 author/ curation rewards .

My proposal / suggestion / advice

Well right now , we have taxes for both native and non-native posts and comments and the tax is as I mentioned 5% of total rewards or 10% of author rewards ( both are one and the same ) .

This provides no incentive to use the particular front-end at all ( maybe because of contests or engagement project people might be using the front-end) . If I post from some other front-end then also there is a tax and if I hop on to POB front-end then also there is a tax so my suggestion is actually to change this .

What to change it for ? - 20% tax for non-native posts / comments and NO tax for native posts/comments sounds good to me .

We gotto provide the users who are hopping on to the front-end more rewards than those who aren't using the front-end .

While some are discussing about 75/25 , we don't even have 50/50 yet . With the tax in picture , there is 0 possibility for an author to receive 50% of the rewards which doesn't seem fair to me .


Let me know in the comments if you vote for or against changing the existing 10% tax to 20% tax for non-native and 0% tax for native posts/comments.

That's it from me today , I will be back tomorrow with another data analysis .

Regards ,

MR.

Posted Using LeoFinance Beta

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Is the system broken? Does it need to be FIXED? I read the system when it started, I voted on post, commented on post and made post, (not many), I don't earn over 50 POB on many post, in fact one close to fifty and one above fifty, mostly in the 1 to 6 POB range. I do not see anything that really needs FIXING.

I have seen the effects on Hive and Steem of what happens when rewards systems are chased, it just leads to more drama, more junk, and more deceit. If it is not broken it does not need fixing.


Posted via proofofbrain.io

think go for it on non native comments, everyones greed and milking is damn apparent and it's like watching a really sick movie all "Lord of the Flies", if people want to be such a part of a community yet never use the frontend then why not charge more, we're paying out our butts on posts cause we use the frontend
then again I feel dpos itself is inherently flawed and things like this have to happen as at least a fiscal bandaid
just an op/ed


Posted via proofofbrain.io

if people want to be such a part of a community yet never use the frontend then why not charge more, we're paying out our butts on posts cause we use the frontend

Exactly my point .

I understand that we gotto raise funds for @pob-fund but by taxing those who are using the front-end ? That doesn't seem right to me .

then again I feel dpos itself is inherently flawed and things like this have to happen as at least a fiscal bandaid

That's true too .

Why I am stressing on these things now is , in future we will have lot of users on this platform and then the tag abusers , farmers will weed out due to lack of rewards for non-quality posts but right now since there are few users getting huge amount of POB - we have to take measures to prevent abuse .

I really feel 20% tax for non-native and 0% for native is good for the platform but I don't really think many are interested in discussing about this.


Posted via proofofbrain.io

I'm wanting to give this a hundo but need to recharge and if I forget, forgive me ......I am usually busy or at times (like the last 4 days plus) chilling vacay. ;)

I absolutely agree with what you are saying or "we're saying" and then some
am doing my best to curate accordingly and think it's fair. I see a lot using POB but it's still being driven to cash in the most with other tribes I just think it's a show of what people are about.
.....was gone a few days, see some new people and it is what it is, people will vote who they think truly has biz smarts vs. milking and some other things. imo (am taking the h outta imho because there is nothing humble about it) ;)

No tax for native post sounds good, although even if there'll be tax at all 20% is huge, maybe 5% or something, so that at least there will be incentives for posting on the front-end. Sometimes I post on any end maybe Leo or POB sometimes I hardly consider these incentives personally. Although these would generally differ from people as sometimes I apprioprately post on POB end due to how it suits the content persay.
As for 50/50, I'm totally up for it because curators needs the incentive to curate on POB and investors needs the same to buy and this is how it is for every other tribe token. When it becomes lucrative to buy POB it means less liquidity in hive engine and co and as well it's good for prices. Wouldn't matter if an author earns 75% on a dipping token. So people would adjust to 50/50 and allow curators and investors to have a reason to even curatw in the first place. Many advantages to 50\50


Posted via proofofbrain.io

It's nice to see the data, and you(can I say you?), are doing a good job!! I'm learning a lot(I'm a data apprentice)!!

I'm not in favor of the 75/25, and I can say that easily because I'm not a whale, I'm a minnow(if I can call me this...), but I think that balance is better.

I don't like to much the tax reaching only one part, but I understand the necessity of having a tax. I think that we have to talk about what is more near to our reality at this moment, and this means resolving this subject( 75/25 split) maybe doing a pool (and think most of the votes will be on the "no" side), and focus in more practical ones, maybe changing the way the tax works?

Well, I hope that this comment doesn't go in the wrong way, but I'm seeing too many people gaining POB only talking about this and other similar subjects(it's not your case). And I bet that I'm not the only one seeing all of this and feeling uneasy...

And if saying this could hindering me in the future, so be it, all will be fun until it isn't.


Posted via proofofbrain.io

On the tax, I'm not sure if it is possible to split the tax between curators and creators? Meaning it will become 47.5% -> 5% <- 47.5%.

If the above can be done, then I'm ok with leaving the tax on pob.io front-end content as it is. I think those posting from other front-ends could contribute more to pob development with a 15% tax.

It's a bit like how I have to pay 30% capital gains tax on US stocks because I'm not a citizen.


Posted via proofofbrain.io

I am not in favor of changing everything and this distracts from more meaningful content creation. I think 50/50 is fair.


Posted via proofofbrain.io

I think you are right the 50-50 split is fair.

But maybe the non native tax rise is a good thing and would create an incentive to authors to use the #pob front end more.

I am all for reducing native taxes in exchange for upping non native taxes.

This would benefit the community, although I dont think reducing native to 0 would be a good thing for the community as it may not bring in enough taxes at first for maintanence costs etc,maybe a 5-15 split which seems fair and ensure income through taxes for maintenence.

With the tax taken before a 50-50 split between author and curator becoming equal or are there other reasons, why the 50-50 isint done equally


Posted via proofofbrain.io

Yes.


Posted via proofofbrain.io

I don't think there is a need to change but since everyone is use to it by now. But I do think if they want to replicate what LEO does then yes there shouldn't be a tax on the front-end only posts.

Posted Using LeoFinance Beta

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average curation reward is around 0.3-0.4 .

Hmmm. That's disappointing. I've been commenting and manually upvoting from the Proofofbrain front-end. Those figures don't motivate me to continue.

Posted Using LeoFinance Beta

I think average is about the total, some people don't have much power. If you have more than 2k stake, and you control your votes you can make 10 or more pobs a day just voting.


Posted via proofofbrain.io

If you have more than 2k stake, and you control your votes you can make 10 or more pobs a day just voting.

I haven't been paying attention to be honest but I just checked and I have earned >2.5K from just manually curating. That's amazing!!! 😁

!ENGAGE 10

Posted Using LeoFinance Beta

It's really amazing!!


Posted via proofofbrain.io

Thank you for your engagement on this post, you have recieved ENGAGE tokens.

Isn't the 20% tax for non-native how LeoFinance set up? I am in favor of dropping the native tax to 0% but before increasing the non-native tax we need to look at the data regarding the use of non-native vs native might help make a better decision. Is it a good idea to mirror POB after LeoFinance?


Posted via proofofbrain.io

5% to Null, that's awesome, didn't know it was deflationary!

What to change it for ? - 20% tax for non-native posts / comments and NO tax for native posts/comments sounds good to me.

That would be interesting for sure. What percentage of posts are authored outside of the native front end? would fewer tokens be burned since the majority of posts are authored outside (I assume)? or would an increase to 20% be sufficient to maintain the current burn level while simultaneously encouraging native front end participation..?

As always thanks for using data and some sweet visuals to illustrate your story with data.

Posted Using LeoFinance Beta

I would keep it 10% tax but only for non-native posts, and make this change after the introduction of the new interface, so that users can actually have somewhere to be pleased to go instead of the standard clone.

Posted Using LeoFinance Beta

I didn't realize just how little of the token is out there. It seems like my small stake is actually pretty high if the lowest person on the rich list only has about 3000 tokens. Very intersting!

Posted Using LeoFinance Beta

Good analysis,i believe contents posted from the front-end should be taxed lesser...


Posted via proofofbrain.io