Hive-Engine Diesel Pools: Tips and Tricks

avatar

I use diesel pools on Hive-Engine intensively and have done so since very close to their launch.

I believe diesel pools were introduced at the same time as the new front end from the Hive Engine team, TribalDex, about 3 years ago, so they certainly have some history on Hive-Engine already.

After some brief research, looks like I was close enough. They were planned, but not yet released.

SEO note: interesting that the inleo.io domain was the first Hive front-end result for this post (on presearch/dsearch), despite being newer than other domains and, obviously, not the front-end used by aggroed to publish his post.

I know some people avoid diesel pools, for various reasons. Some of these reasons are legitimate and revolve around a lower risk profile of the user, others are because of the lack of understanding. It's the second category of reasons that I'll try to clear up, to an extent, in this post.

Before we start, if you are familiar with liquidity pools from other ecosystems, diesel pools are relatively similar. Where differences appear is in the way rewards are distributed (once a day) and the way they are added: someone (anyone!) has to add reward tokens to the diesel pool distribution contract; there is no inflation dedicated to LP rewards. Also, when the reward period expires, they need to be refilled. Liquidity providers also earn fees from transactions, as it usually happens in other ecosystems.

And now, for the people who know some basics about diesel pools but would like to learn tips and tricks, here they are:

Swapping in the Diesel Pool or Trading on the Tokens Market?

Swapping is one of the operations I do most often in diesel pools and on Hive-Engine, in general.

But when do you swap and when do you trade?

When the pair between the tokens that you want to swap doesn't exist as a diesel pool, you only have one solution: trade from the first token to SWAP.HIVE and from SWAP.HIVE to the second token (if the second token isn't SWAP.HIVE).

When you have both options to choose from, you have to take into consideration that swapping generally takes fewer steps, especially if you have to swap multiple tokens to the same token (like multiple tokens to SWAP.HIVE). So, it saves you time.

If you want to optimize for the price you get (especially if you have a higher dollar-worth amount to swap/trade), then you should check both options, swapping and trading. One of them will be better and that's the route you should generally choose.

For higher amounts, or in diesel pools with low liquidity, the price impact becomes a parameter you should watch carefully.

In the screenshot above, I want to point out exactly that aspect, the price impact. Note what happens if I would want to swap 10 SWAP.HIVE to POB. Look at the price impact at the bottom (in orange, in this case). It would be between 6.08% and 6.58%. That's a pretty high price impact, but it can be even higher, like 25% or even 50%. You can imagine anything above 10% generally isn't worth it, and more than a few percent rarely is (usually this should be below 1%).

The price impact can be lowered by doing multiple lower-sized swaps. But then you need to be careful about the accumulated fee, which for diesel pools is set at 0.25% for every swap. So, if you do 4 total swaps to complete your full swap, that's 1% in fees, plus the price impact on each swap. It might help if you leave some time between the smaller swaps to allow the arbitrage bots to rebalance the pool to some degree, so you won't have a higher price impact on subsequent smaller swaps.

If the price impact is still high, and you are not pressed by time, the best solution is to set limit orders and wait for them to get executed. Or if there is the option of an OTC transaction, maybe that should be considered.

What Parameters to Check for Diesel Pools?

We'll move here from the user's perspective of the diesel pool (swapping) to one of the liquidity providers, and analyze the most important parameters of the diesel pools to focus on.

I think this is a somewhat personal decision, it depends a lot on the risks you want to assume and the time horizon. For an up to medium risk the plan to build up (or hold) a position at least for the medium term, here's what I would consider:

Tokens from the Pair

There are multiple ways we can look at the two tokens from the pair that makes up the diesel pool.

Impermanent Loss (IL)

Not understanding how impermanent loss works is probably one of the main reasons why people avoid adding liquidity to diesel pools. There are two solutions to this:

  • you either keep reading about the concept until one explanation finally makes sense for you
  • you make it a non-issue

I'll discuss the second option and what does it mean. At the basic level, it means adding liquidity to a diesel pool where you like both tokens equally, and wouldn't mind being left with only one of them and none of the other (no matter which one it is), and you will be fine with however their number varies in time in the pool.

Let's say you have a position in the SWAP.HIVE:SPS diesel pool. If you like both tokens equally, you don't mind if you end up with more SWAP.HIVE or more SPS at any point in time.

Let's say, on the other end, you have the SWAP.BLURT:SWAP.BTC diesel pool. Would you mind ending up with more SWAP.BLURT and less SWAP.BTC than initially due to impermanent loss? Probably!

There is another catch when taking this approach. The dollar value of your position can still go down, in various scenarios. And if they both go down in price, the dollar value for something like SWAP.HIVE:SPS will go down much quicker than for the two tokens, separately. But it also goes up much quicker on the way up.

That why, I wouldn't keep a SWAP.HIVE:SPS in the crashing phase of the bear market if I care about the dollar value. But I would keep a SWAP.HIVE:SWAP.HBD, maybe (there isn't a diesel pool with two stablecoins on Hive-Engine anymore if we take BUSD out of the equation). If one side of the diesel pool is a stablecoin, it slows down the drop of the volatile token in dollar terms, but it also slows down the recovery.

Inflation & Utility

The second factor that is important for tokens that are part of a diesel pool is their inflation, and utility, respectively.

They come as a package because a token with many use cases that create demand can sustain higher inflation without affecting the price significantly than another with limited utility.

But if inflation adds a sell pressure that pushes the price down without any support, that's a bad choice for one of the tokens in the diesel pools, especially if the other token is one you'd like to keep, like SWAP.HIVE.

Let's call this token X, so we can refer to it more easily.

Let's say someone added 1000 X and 1 SWAP.HIVE to the pool.

If the price of X drops rapidly, after a while, you will end up with many more X tokens and fewer SWAP.HIVE, exactly what you don't want.

Liquidity and Volume

Another important parameter to consider for tokens that make up a diesel pool is liquidity.

This is actually an interesting game.

If a diesel pool has a decent volume (can be checked, along with fees, on TribalDex) but a lower liquidity, adding liquidity to it will make you earn a higher portion of the transaction fees.

If a diesel pool has almost no volume and low liquidity, you have to consider what it'll cost you to exit when the time comes: can you exit? how long it takes? with what price impact?

Of course, this is a fluid situation, but it doesn't hurt to check what you are getting into before you make the decision.

For exiting, the trade market for the tokens should also be considered, not only the diesel pool.

Trustworthiness and Reputation

This should have been higher on the list. Token creators on Hive-Engine have the ability to print tokens as they please. Do you trust them not to print tokens outside of what was planned/announced?

If you never heard of the token issuer, and they don't come forward after the token is created, maybe that's too much trust...

Diesel Pool Rewards

Inflation & utility, liquidity & volume, and trustworthiness & reputation we discussed above also apply to the reward tokens.

On top of that, I'd consider:

Understanding the Rewards

There are different types of rewards you can receive for being in a diesel pool, and they can't all be seen from the same place.

Every liquidity provider receives a portion of the fees accumulated. Although not clearly broken down by liquidity provider (as far as I know), you can find information about fees on TribalDex and make calculations manually, if you want to.

Then, we have the rewards added to the distribution contract, the ones we talked about at the beginning, and which are paid daily for a set period. They can be viewed from Beeswap (click on the small arrow at the right to see the reward tokens; APR is below):

If a diesel pool doesn't have reward tokens, it might be incentivized with BXT tokens. Here's an example (you can only see this on Beeswap):

This is the only diesel pool that currently receives BXT incentives, but there used to be more. A diesel pool can have both BXT incentives from Beeswap and reward tokens added to the distribution contract. But in this case, the SWAP.HIVE:BXT diesel pool doesn't have reward tokens, apart from BXT.

That's not all though. Splinterlands diesel pools don't show any token rewards on Hive-Engine interfaces, but Splinterlands is paying SPS rewards to liquidity providers. The way to see and manage them is from the Splinterlands in-game interface.

Quality of Tokens

We can understand different things by "quality". Generally, you should expect that the reward tokens be of value to you, or, if not, that they hold their price in time, so they can be sold without issues and without a dropping APR.

Number of Tokens

It's one thing to receive 1-2 great tokens with a good APR, 5 ok tokens with a better APR, or 12 tokens you haven't heard of with a huge APR.

In my opinion, the last option is the worst (even if it has 1-2 great tokens, but in lower quantities).

It's the worst because the APR is likely to drop over time and because it gives you more work to do, to sell a bunch of tokens regularly. Plus, some of those tokens may not have buyers, and when they do, big spreads are to be expected. The huge APR is simply an illusion, in this case.

Note that sometimes small amounts (in dollar terms) of token rewards are added to popular diesel pools, as a way to advertise the respective tokens, since no one can stop anyone from adding reward tokens to any diesel pool, regardless of who created the pool. So, sometimes the number of tokens being rewarded can be deceiving as a way to decide on what diesel pools to provide liquidity to.

Reward Period

More important than the APR is how long it is until the current rewards run out. When they run out, sometimes you have the surprise they are not renewed. Sometimes the newly added rewards amount to a lower APR. That's why this is a much more important criterion than the APR.

You can see that from the Distribution Contract on TribalDex (Payments column):

Conclusion

This turned out quite long. I hope I didn't miss anything significant from what I intended to talk about. Let me know if you have comments or questions.


Want to check out my collection of posts?

It's a good way to pick what interests you.

Posted Using InLeo Alpha



0
0
0.000
38 comments
avatar

Thanks for this very thorough and useful explanation @gadrian!

I have mostly stayed away from the pools because the vast majority of tokens simply don't have any significant volume... and I see a lot of pools that "appear" to offer some really good bonuses, but they are so often between pairs that have absolutely no purpose or value, and sometimes it even looks like the "rewards" are little more than someone's attempt to dump the millions of completely worthless tokens they invested in some project that went nowhere.

=^..^=

0
0
0.000
avatar

That's why maybe we shouldn't look for the highest APR (something I've done in the past too). I sometimes prefer a diesel pool with a low APR or even no rewards but with high fees.

There are various ways to use diesel pools to achieve different goals, without using exotic pairs at all or rarely touching them. Unfortunately, we no longer have a fully stable diesel pool after BUSD goes away unless it is replaced with a different token, like SWAP.USDT. But a stable diesel pool can be very useful, especially in the bear market, even if it doesn't have any rewards (but it has fees).

Then, every once in a while a diesel pool shows up that in the short term is very profitable, like we still have ZING-SWAP.HIVE. There are other cases of diesel pools you can use for various purposes. For example, any player of dcity should use the SWAP.HIVE-SIM diesel pool (and one doesn't need to be a player to get a share of the rewards).

0
0
0.000
avatar

I have wondered what hive engine was all about and how to make swapping of tokens. I'm okay with such a nice publication.

0
0
0.000
avatar

Let me know if you have questions. I assumed some basic understanding of diesel pools in this post, but I hope I can help you if you need it.

0
0
0.000
avatar

Excellent content @gadrian ...

"This turned out quite long. I hope I didn't miss anything significant from what I intended to talk about. Let me know if you have comments or questions."

... and I think you covered it quite well, from my more limited experience-base than yours.

The timing was great as well. I have recently, to help some others, decided to "dip my toe" back into Hive posting again. Focused on the Saturday Savers Club community. I think they are a good audience for content just like this ...


One question: One of Hive's distinctives is that you can look into the transaction details on anyone's wallet, i.e. it cannot be blocked (unless the memo is encrypted, which helps a bit I guess ...).

That said, Hive Engine seems a whole different "animal" when it comes to even trying to see what others might be doing.

What is your experience? Is there some "back door," for example, to know who is in any of these LPs and to what extent? Even down to the transactions they are executing?

[Yes, I do know about the BeeSwap's version of "Richlist," but there is no way to put a particular account's name in there, that I can see ... And it is a "summary view" only]

As it is, seems like both TribalDex and BeeSwap require logging in and only then do you see that level of detail. On your own wallet, of course ...

0
0
0.000
avatar

You can see the liquidity providers for a diesel pool from Beeswap, from here:

image.png

You have the option to search for an account there.

image.png

As for transactions, I am not aware of a public tool to trace transactions that involve diesel pools, your own or others. You can see the history of the rewards that are distributed to your account, which is an improvement because for a good while they weren't displayed.

Other transactions on H-E, as I'm sure you know, can be seen using a block explorer. You can see transactions filtered by account and/or token here.

0
0
0.000
avatar

Okay, I knew most of this, but missed seeing that you can search for a specific account in BeeSwap's Richlist.

"Other transactions on H-E, as I'm sure you know, can be seen using a block explorer. You can see transactions filtered by account and/or token here."

Yes, I am quite familiar with that tool, but ... It is limited ... When it comes to these LPs, worthless ... Even BeeSwap, for some reason (unless I have missed it somewhere), doesn't provide transaction details for adding, removing, swapping, etc.

I have to open that listing up in TribalDex ...


Well, anyway, I guess the tools we do have are better than nothing!


Have you spent much time with ... Whatever the name is of this new initiative I seem to have seen somewhere about an entirely new platform for L2 tokens on Hive? If so, what are your impressions of it?

Personally, I keep looking for an announcement that, at long last, our Hive blockchain has added true smart contract functionality at the L1 level of the blockchain. And "off to the races" (maybe?) from there ...

0
0
0.000
avatar

That's true, H-E is rather limited when it comes to the information we can find on certain operations.

Have you spent much time with ... Whatever the name is of this new initiative I seem to have seen somewhere about an entirely new platform for L2 tokens on Hive? If so, what are your impressions of it?

Do you mean VSC? No, I haven't. Hopefully, it will overcome some of the limitations of Hive-Engine.

Personally, I keep looking for an announcement that, at long last, our Hive blockchain has added true smart contract functionality at the L1 level of the blockchain.

I don't think we will have them on L1. The chosen way seems to be on L2 and more teams seem to have them on their roadmap for L2, besides VSC. Blocktrades is one of them.

0
0
0.000
avatar

Yes, I think VSC sounds right. I know nothing about it, but I have seen mention of it made here and there.

"I don't think we will have them on L1"

Hmmm. Maybe. But if Hive is ever going to have any of the functionality even remotely close to say ETH and its smart contracts, it has to be L1. Then, on top of that functionality, any L2 token has what it needs.

If that day ever comes, Hive Engine would become obsolete, I believe.

Note: I intentionally say if that day ever comes, because I have been reading about this coming, at some point in the future, since I became active on Hive in early 2018, closing fast on 6 years ago ...

I could be wrong, but that is my current understanding.

0
0
0.000
avatar

ETH has many issues (especially with the high fees) because of having smart contracts at L1 and having all the nodes to run all of them, regardless of the type of smart contracts. That's why all the L2 EVM chains came into existence which had the main mission, at first, to be the low-fee alternative to Ethereum.

0
0
0.000
avatar

Understood. And long known.

"... That's why all the L2 EVM chains came into existence ..."

Do you agree without some of the functionality of ETH, these blockchains would not exist? Certainly not in their present form?

0
0
0.000
avatar

None of the copycats would exist without EVM, and L2 chains wouldn't exist without Ethereum.

But that doesn't mean smart contracts at L1 was a good idea. They just can't reverse course from this software architecture, too much has been built using L1 smart contracts on Ethereum and the EVM copycats. And they probably won't admit smart contracts at L1 was a bad idea, just like bitcoin maxis don't see anything else but bitcoin.

0
0
0.000
avatar

Thanks for writing about this. I have had small amounts invested in Pools, not significant amounts. It had a value of $191 at the end of 2021. It has dwindled down to a value of around $14 without my touching them since. I do get some rewards from those positions, which I've staked rather than reinvest. I suppose I could unstake and add them back to the pools, or reinvest my rewards.

This also got me to check in on my Splinterlands pools. I had forgotten to claim my SPS rewards. While there, I see that some of their pools have some good returns. But at the same time, the tokens tend to drop in price over time. I suppose what is to be learned is to take the money and run as far as the rewards are concerned.

0
0
0.000
avatar
(Edited)

Yes, unfortunately, many H-E tokens know only one direction: down. But there are a few exceptions. Unless using stablecoin diesel pools, they usually shouldn't be left unattended for long periods. And (semi-)active management is needed. The same thing is valid for all liquidity pools, no matter the ecosystem.

Since 2021 many things happened in crypto. Then we were at the top of a bull market, now we are at the beginning of another one, but after a long and harsh bear market. Even top coins are still down significantly from their ATHs.

0
0
0.000
avatar

These are some fantastic tips and tricks about Hive-Engine Diesel pools! I'm happy to read things about the APR and the difference between "quality" rewards in a few tokens and the "quantity" of junk tokens... That's something that people don't understand or don't want to understand and most of the time, that's where they lose... A 100% APR doesn't mean anything if the token value in the pool drops 3x from the initial value when you added liquidity...

Thanks for creating this post!!!


I have picked this post on behalf of the @OurPick project! Check out our Reading Suggestions Posts!

Comment Footer.jpg
Please consider voting for our Liotes HIVE Witness. Thank you!

0
0
0.000
avatar

A 100% APR doesn't mean anything if the token value in the pool drops 3x from the initial value when you added liquidity...

In the long term, this is bad, because at some point it becomes unattractive and may fool people who don't know how diesel/liquidity pool rewards work into thinking the APR is relatively constant in time. But for shorter times, APR hunters really love these kinds of things.

0
0
0.000
avatar

But for shorter times, APR hunters really love these kinds of things.

The problem is that 99% of these "APR hunters" fall into the trap of "forever compounding" and never see profits... 🙂 (speaking from personal experience in the past... I hope I learned the lesson... lol...)

0
0
0.000
avatar

Yes, I've been there too, and hopefully, I learned my lesson too.

0
0
0.000
avatar

Congratulations @gadrian! You have completed the following achievement on the Hive blockchain And have been rewarded with New badge(s)

You have been a buzzy bee and published a post every day of the week.

You can view your badges on your board and compare yourself to others in the Ranking
If you no longer want to receive notifications, reply to this comment with the word STOP

Check out our last posts:

Hive Power Up Day - February 1st 2024
0
0
0.000
avatar

So much I was able to learn today which I am shocked also. Thank you so much for sharing

0
0
0.000
avatar

This is the only proper introduction to Hive engine that I’ve read in my life

0
0
0.000
avatar

Thanks! I wasn't thinking about it as an introduction. There are a few easier steps to using Hive-Engine that I haven't gone through, leaving it to other guides.

0
0
0.000
avatar

It's a very comprehensive view of diesel pools. I think I knew about most of the points but I do agree that trust is a big part of this. I think the only thing missing is tribaldex and it's choice to let you see how much you earned in fees from your liquidity pool.

0
0
0.000
avatar

I think the only thing missing is tribaldex and it's choice to let you see how much you earned in fees from your liquidity pool.

I mentioned it in a few places. But it's a long post, and I probably didn't emphasize it enough.

If we keep thinking about it, we will find new things to add, I'm sure. Who knows, maybe I'll keep updating it in the future if it gives many views for the evergreen rewards, lol.

0
0
0.000
avatar

But then you need to be careful about the accumulated fee, which for diesel pools is set at 0.25% for every swap.

This is something I don't quite understand. Is there an additional fee apart from the 0.25%? For example, if you have 400 Hive. A single transaction would have a 1 Hive fee. Breaking it down to four [100 Hive], each transaction will have 0.25 Hive fee. Both methods total 1 Hive fee total.

0
0
0.000
avatar

Hmm, you are right! I am thinking too much about liquidity pools, in general, and didn't realize it is a percentual fee, not a fixed one.

0
0
0.000
avatar

Cool, I guess the big reason to split it up would just be to not move the price as much. Thanks.

0
0
0.000
avatar

I'll have to bookmark this post and keep re-reading it until I understand all the basics of Diesel Pools. My problem in not participating much with diesel pools is simply a lack of sufficient basic understanding. Swapping tokens is what I mostly do with diesel pools, providing liquidity for rewards seems a bit complicated before.
Thanks for this incredible post :)

0
0
0.000
avatar

You are welcome! I believe there is still room for a more basic guide on using diesel pools because I've assumed at least some basic knowledge, of at least how to use the interface(s), what a liquidity pool is and how it works from a general perspective, and even some broad understanding of what impermanent loss is (even if it isn't very clear to the reader how to avoid it).

0
0
0.000
avatar

Hello @gadrian I have a question. Is this what's in Listnerds with the CTP tokens and Listnerds tokens? Mine have not worked for months on ListNerds and I am not able to sign in anymore with my Hive login just recently. Thank you. Barb #ctp

0
0
0.000
avatar

No, I believe the tokenomics of Listnerds (distribution of new LISTNERDS) hasn't been working in quite a while. I am logged into Listnerds and don't have to log in every day anymore. Haven't had this kind of issue, but haven't logged in in quite a while since I am always logged in.

0
0
0.000
avatar

It's things like this that make the project that much stronger and the good thing is that people participate in it.

0
0
0.000